i mean, you get used to it. and there were two reasons why the british began to bomb deliberately civilian populations in cities like hamburg and later -- [inaudible] and one was an illustration of how people often learn the wrong lessons of history. because the generals who fought if world war ii had memories of world war i. and the last thing they wanted was a war of attrition. and they thought that bombing would demoralize the enemy population. they would then turn against their leaders and bring the war to a speedier end which turned out to be a completely faulty analysis. in fact, it often did the opposite, it raises the 40 real this in an odd way -- morale like london can take it and so forth. >> they talk about the air wars of being a defeat. >> yes. >> a defeat. >> but there's another reason though, which is that the british were desperate. i think hamburg was '42? and there was no way that the british then, because he were -- no, it must have been earlier. and there was no way to fight back at that stag